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Canon Medium Format DSLR - 2FF?
Canon to move into digital medium format cameras?
Musings on where next after a 35mm full frame digital SLR - A new collection of lenses and cameras at the top of the Canon range?
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2008 March
19th Nothing connected with Canon at the moment, and the words I've had about them releasing some new tilt/shift lenses this year suggest that the 35mm format is still their main attack on MF
However Phase One have announced their 645 'open' system in conjunction with Mamiya.
- Flash brochure
- Article - in German
- Article - Spanish
- Mamiya press info (Nov - announcing collaboration)
January 4th Some MF related rumours and a wishlist at TOP ;-)
"Canon will enter the medium format world with a new camera, a new line of lenses and a digital back. The price point of a lens/camera/back kit will be in the range of $12,000-$14,000. Whether or not the back will be compatible with existing m.f. cameras (excluding the new Hassies, of course) is unclear. There are people who claim to know people who have tested this product line in the past year or so."
I noted that the Canon MF project was 'on hold' last year, rather than cancelled, so maybe there is hope yet ;-)
And from the same page, a camera 'rumour' that stretches the envelope a bit :-) ;-)
"Fuji GA 645 D:
Based, loosely, on the Fuji GA 645 series medium format rangefinder cameras, this camera features a FULL-FRAME 6x4.5 (55mm x 43mm) 48 megapixel SuperCCD SR sensor (24 million S pixels, 24 million R pixels). With 16 bit A/D converter and advanced processing, 10 full stops of dynamic range are captured.
ISO range from 200 to 6400. With no discernable noise through 3200 speed and barely perceptible noise at 6400. Has 8 pre-programmed film simulation modes and 4 programable settings.
The fixed four position zoom 45mm, 55mm, 80mm and 120mm (35mm equivalent: 28mm f4, 35mm f4.2, 50mm f4.8 and 75mm f5.6) is crisp and sharp "wide open" at all settings with no discernable chromatic aberation and limited easily correctable distortions at the extremes.The autofocus is much improved over the GA645 series - very fast and very sharp (beyond the resolution of the sensor).
Shooting speed of 3 frames per second until buffer fills with 1.5 frames per second thereafter. Buffer depth is 10 frames.
RAW image size is 100MB. Uses compact flash. Features lithium-ion battery with 500-700 shot capacity.
Target audience: Landscape photographers, street shooters with desire for ultimate image quality, studio shooters... Price: $9,000"
I think I'd only add a wider wide setting for my own wishlist ;-)
2007 November 15th Nothing on other formats from Canon, but Mamiya and Phase One have decided to work together. The MF market is never going to be a big one, so given Hasselblad's decision to go for a closed system, Phase One had to go somewhere.
P1 press announcement (PDF), including an expensive 'buy one, get one free' offer ;-) ... plenty more thoughts over at LL
September 19th In an update to the MF comments we were told some more about why the MF project is on hold (not 'canned' as we were originally told ;-)
"Canon believe that by continuing to push the 35mm full frame lens and sensor technology they can continue to replace most uses of MF except for very high resolution studio and landscape shots."
"Many studios that used to have several MF film bodies have cut down and may only have one in regular use with a digital back, or just get out the film body for special shoots"
17th In some recent emails, we've heard that:
- Canon had indeed acquired some MF IP many for years from a company that sold it off
- They has been an ongoing project looking at making their own MF system
This has been suspended for a combination of reasons:
- The market is too small (only a few thousand cameras a year)
- It would distract critical lens design resources needed in the L series (new L updated lenses are a priority)
- There is more to gain from seeing how close Canon can come to MF standards in the 35mm or similar formats
Much more cost effective and a much wider market.
i.e. A fashion studio might have 1 MF body and 3-4 or more 1D series (if they have any MF at all)
However - Some of Sony's future plans in this respect are interesting (this from Canon's POV we believe)
Sony are known to be pursuing several fronts over the next 2-3 years:
- Becoming the CMOS sensor supplier of choice to Nikon, Pentax etc
- Designing CMOS sensors of up to 50mp in sizes up to 36mm x 36mm (ie square full frame)
- Looking at high end technologies in their DSLRs such as hard disk drives, removable rear LCDs that can act as a live viewfinder.
- Looking at a super high end body blending the DSLR with medium format removable back.
August 18th Canon can now make 35mm full frame chips in one step - and can make larger ones too - more info on the 50D page from a lengthy email we were sent.
- "Sensor technology - Canon have mentioned that full frame sensor chips need two stepper passes. Sony now has the technology to do this in one pass and are preparing their own sensors and selling to them Nikon. However, Canon have a new 'one pass' technology too. What's more, it can do even larger than 35mm (36x24mm) in a single pass.
Canon is very excited about a next generation CMOS sensors they are working on. Two full frame versions have 40M and 50M pixels at the -same- noise level as the current 1D series. Low power supply voltages give cooler chips and lower noise even with smaller pixels. Different circuit fabrication techniques also promise to make close to 100% of the sensor area active pixels. This technology won't make any of the upcoming models, but is expected in 2009/10."
4th All quiet but still plenty plenty of talk of the ZD ... I'll stick with my MPP (see above :-)
July 7th Good to see some thoughts still being put into what Canon MF could do (DPR :-)
4th I've had a good look round for any Canon MF noises and all seems quiet
However I'd forgotten to mention that if you want to move into Digital MF on a lower budget ($10k) then there is the Mamiya 645AFD II Medium Format Camera with 80mm f/2.8 AF lens and the Mamiya ZD 22 Megapixel Digital Back.
The Mamiya ZD digital back offers a 36mm x 48mm Dalsa CCD 22 mega pixel image capture sensor.
This is a 1.15x crop compared with 120 film use (42x56mm)
Discussion in a PDN thread
May 20th Looks as if Pentax and Hoya might get together - or maybe not -- check various posts in this LL thread for the various points of view. Whatever happens, the 645D still looks a long way off...
11th Bad news for people waiting for the Pentax MF (from AP and a LL thread)
"Tokyo-based newspaper Nikkei reported yesterday that Pentax plans to 'abandon the development of medium format single-lens reflex cameras designed for professional photographers and specialise in digital SLR offerings for new and intermediate users.' "
Looks like continuing fallout from the (failed/stalled) Hoya takeover.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/20070511TDY08005.htm
- Oh, and since we are looking for rumours, note the "I also look forward to the new Canon cameras that will be released in the next year." in one response in that LL MF thread ;-)
8th I'm just back from a drive up the Northern California and Oregon coasts (nice way of spending a couple of weeks ;-) and have been having a good look round for any info - seem that this particular rumour thread has dried up for the time being :-(
April 10th For those looking at the long awaited Pentax MF digital (see below), I notice the proposed Pentax/Hoya merger/takeover is off, or on again. More info from www.bloomberg.com/index.html (type Pentax into the search box).
March 8th PMA opens and the Canon 2FF seems firmly still in the imagination class of cameras - much like the Nikon D3 much hyped over the last week or so ;-)
Anyway if you're still not familar with the 'it will be available at a future date' marketing, somewhat more common in the digital MF field, have a look at some Sinar info. Despite occasional mentions on forums, I'd not expect Canon to make any move on this type of 'modular' approach.
February 25th When is FF MF and what is truly FF?
How many camera marketing executives can dance on the tip of a needle? If you follow the MF digital Pentax thread on LL. then there is obviously some considerable leeway
"FF 645 will need a sensor size of 56 x 41.5mm, I can't see how a 48 x 36mm can be call FF. That camera will have a 'crop factor' of 1,34"
and
"a sensor of "only" 44 x 33 mm, you a have a crop factor of 1,6"
And the Pentax... (note the somewhat vague timing ;-)
Pentax 645 Digital medium-format digital SLR camera
- Kodak-developed extra-large CCD image sensor with 31.6 total megapixels
- Compatibility with existing smc Pentax 645 interchangeable lenses
- A pair of storage-media slots for the loading of an SD memory card and a CF card
- Market launch schedule to be announced at a later date
Interchangeable standard lens for Pentax 645
The smc Pentax-D FA645 55mm F2.8 is an interchangeable standard lens for exclusive use with Pentax medium-format digital SLR camera:
- A standard lens designed for exclusive use with the Pentax 645 Digital (tentative name)
- Advanced optical design with all properties of lens element groups, including curvature and lens coating, optimized for digital photography
- Can be used with existing Pentax 645-series medium-format SLR film cameras
- Will be marketed simultaneously with the Pentax 645 Digital camera body
- Market launch schedule to be announced at a later date
Pentax AF200FG dedicated auto flash
- Compact clip-on-type auto flash unit with a guide number of 20 (at ISO 100/m)
- Market launch schedule to be announced at a later date
Pentax 645 - 'real soon now'
Other pentax announcements at LGD
22nd Pentax comes out with a 31.6MP 645 digital, using a Kodak CCD
From Engadget:
- "Pentax has apparently tapped Kodak to provide its 31.6 megapixel KAF-31600 medium format CCD for the upcoming 645 Digital, which would seem to be the company's highest resolution digital camera to date. So far all that's known from the pre-PMA announcement is that the 645 will sport both SD and CF slots, and will ship with a specially-built 55mm lens that's also compatible with 645-series SLR film cameras."
18th Various MF musings on the lists -- I do particularly like one Canon MF system mentioned of FM :-)
- The new MF Canon camera sensor is 41.5x56mm and 40MP
- New MF SL (Super L) lenses:
- 35/2.8, 40/3.5 TS-E, 45/2.8, 70/2.8 TS-E, 80/2, 100/2.8 Macro 1:1, 120/2.8 TS-E, 200/2 IS, 300/4 IS Macro 1:1, 300/2.8 IS, 600/5.6 IS, 800/6.3 IS
- 1.4x, 2x
- 35-80/2.8 IS, 80-200/2.8 IS, 200-600/5.6 IS
Something to sell the house for (well several houses if you go for the long stuff too!)
Oops, I should follow up some more of some of my previous links (This was mentioned on the 19th Jan ;-)
17th More prospects for a bigger than 35mm Canon?
An interesting thread on a board that points towards some very interesting announcements?
Have a read, draw your own conclusions, but some quotes:
- "There will not be a camera manufacturer out there who is not looking at building HDR software into cameras while they expand the range of their sensors anyway.
Wait until you see the auto bracketing on the next range of 1 series cameras for instance....and at 8+FPS" - "Not heard so much as a proper whisper on the baby brother camera, ...plenty on the 1Ds and the one whose name cannot be mentioned in public for fear of death...but the 1DMKIII ...not a dickie"
and on MF
- "But now....it's all changed and top of the rooster shed roof is Canon and now there's a whole load of new users who just might come into the game with a digital MF Canon....plus of course Canon have made some intersting purchases as a company in the last couple of years.
No recent Canon talk on the MF forum at LL - I'm looking forward to the reaction if Canon do decide to storm the MF market. The 'barbarians at the gates' threads will start the day that DPreview has a Canon Medium Format forum :-) :-)
I'm told that Canon have made some purchases in the MF area that might be of interest... from FM
- "The "purchase" that Canon made that they are talking about was actually of some production lines and tools sold to Canon by Contax. One of the authors mistakenly said Mamiya which is incorrect. Contax was the Japanese contract manufacturer for Zeiss and Contax Zeiss made awesome medium format cameras with Zeiss optics. These were compatible with various medium format backs (Phase, Leaf, etc) up 48mmx36mm..But in the early 2000's Contax couldn't complete and stopped making medium format cameras. They sold their production lines and tools to Canon."
13th If you read the sensor info yesterday, then do look at some of the info in the follow up posts in that LL thread.
12th Things are pretty quiet on the Canon MF rumours front, but there was a recent document posted on the LL forum by Sinar. I've got a pdf version available.
"33 MP Dalsa and 39 MP Kodak Sensors, Technical Differences and Facts" perhaps slanted a bit towards the Dalsa chip (it's what sinar use) but a good reference.
While we're collecting some older posts - there is this collection of info I missed which has a fairly broad range of rumours (unfortunately no sources or attribution), including a 4D (popular opinion has always been that Canon would avoid the number 4 for various reasons) and this on 'MF'
- "Minimum noise is one of the cornerstones of digital sensor development. With the current photosite dimensions and cost / development capabilities - the limit seems to have been reached. So if you want more pixels with yet low noise you must grow the area, and so.... the real Canon star might be a newly developed studio camera based on double cmos size that might squash the medium market for good. There is talk of a new lens lineup compatible with this format. If so, this is BIG, really BIG."
January 30th For those of you with more spare cash there is the new Hassie H3D-31. I love the marketing droids emphasis on 'near full frame' - much like the EOS 1D2 ;-)
"Featuring near full-frame capture, the H3D-31 uses a 44x33mm sensor enhanced with micro-lenses to boost ISO rating one stop to a new maximum of ISO 800. The system’s new high-speed capture architecture, which is common to all H3D models and enables the fastest possible operation, also gives the H3D-31 an impressive capture rate of 1.2 seconds per image in either mobile or tethered mode."
Nice as it would be to have one, ISO 800 max and .7 frames per second would be a royal pain on some of my work - but for other stuff it would be nice to use, however I can't personally make a valid business case for such kit... :-(
29th I saw a comment mentioning that Canon acquired a company that had designed an MF sensor a few months ago. Is there anything to this ...has anyone any further information?
27th Not quite MF, but another suggestion of a new lens mount and camera at LL
22nd Interesting picture sent from italy...
Old news I'm told - see the following Google picture search
Possible Canon MF?
It seems that this is from the mid 80's when Canon had several MF prototypes, before the whole EOS system appeared. Well if they could do it then, why not now ;-)
19th I notice that there has even been a flurry of comments on DPR relating to a Canon camera with a bigger sensor - see this post for a thorough wish list of 'Super L' lenses ;-)
"The new MF Canon camera sensor is 41.5x56mm and 40MP" -- hmm yes, Canon R&D has been busy :-)
6th An interesting take on Canon's new 'pro' stuff for this year. It was mentioned to us that there will be an additional all new 1 series body in addition to the expected '1DsMkiii'. This one would be a rather specialist offering and the key word was 'movements'. Could this be the 'all' new system referred to a few days ago?
As someone who uses the TS-E 24 and TS-E 90 lenses quite a bit, this one piqued my interest. If implemented well, a camera with a movable lens mount would make it on to many people's 'want one' list :-) I can certainly see a lot of studio uses if coupled with an improved sensor (dynamic range, bit depth etc)
There are obvious difficulties in the limited image circle with most current EF lenses (~58 mm on TS-E lenses) and I'm sure there are a whole host of other mechanical difficulties...
It's certainly worth seeing if any new lenses that get announced have bigger image circles, although I'd expect any such 'specialist' camera to have a few new lenses to add to the marketing fanfare of the announcement ;-)
1st The 'all new' Canon system could (and I suspect this is more likely) point to a big jump in performance in the next 1D type top of the range 35mm FF dslr.
This post on the LL site suggests that:
- "The body is a new design from the ground up but not a new format. Supposedly it is a bit smaller in size and it is the first body to be built from the ground up for a digital sensor. Still with the same mount for the lens, but the glass is being completely redesigned."
Unfortunately it also pushes back this camera until November 2007
November
12th I noticed (OK it was at Photokina ;-) that Leaf and Jenoptic have announced "a new auto focus, medium-format camera", however the press release is rather thin on actual details... There is a bit more detail from Leaf themselves.
In the mean time there has been not a whisper of any "larger than 35mm" info about Canon for some time. I've no doubt that if they wanted to, Canon could wreak havoc in the current digital MF market. If the next 1Ds has ~22Mpix, then quite a few MF backs already lose some of their advantages. I'd be happy if they also increased the bit depth and DR in the next IDs, since when it comes down to it, I've no great desire to buy all new lenses...
Will Canon bring out something really big next year, or stick to 35mm and smaller? I believe that if they did, and had an 'open' lens mount design (much like the EF mount) they could clean up in the market. Question is, does it fit in the corporate road map?
Of course, the best place to ask a question like this might be the Luminous Landscape MF forum, rather than say DPreview ;-)
-- here is a thread on LL, that once you get past people harrumphing over 'rumour posts' has some interesting observations about problems with larger sensors.
October
8th I was asked about a possible move to a 4:3 sensor in Canon Pro cameras. My own thoughts are that a 27x36mm 4:3 sensor is just not a big enough move from 35mm to warrant all the new design work needed. Also after the Hasselblad noises I noticed that Canon had already got their own dig in at the H3D 'full frame' claims in their excellent sensor design PDF
"While some vendors are calling their very expensive 49 x 36.7mm image sensors 'full-frame', they are not, at least in terms of medium format."
5th Just a catch up on the rumblings in the MF digital market, following on from the Hasselblad announcement at Photokina.
In what some see as a short sighted move for the overall MF digital market, Hasselblad have decided that the H3D will -only- work with their own digital backs - so no more Phase 1, Leaf or Sinar backs , they'll only work with H1s or H2s. Add to that, the fact that you can't use a lens like the new 28mm on the older bodies and you can see what looks to all intents and purposes like a major player trying to enforce its will. I can imagine the uproar (and disbelief) if this was tried in the digital SLR market...
For a longer take (from a long time Hasselblad user) on this, see MR's comments on Luminous Landscape.
Info on latest Phase One P+ range of backs (Info and pdf product sheet)
September
26th Nothing from Canon at Photokina...
Hasselblad announce the H3D, with a double (35mm) frame MF CCD up to ISO 400 - slightly smaller than that Canon prototype at the top of the page, but no pop-up flash or print button ;-) (thanks Martin)
"Large format 48x36mm digital capture
Today’s digital photography demands higher resolution, less noise, and improved compositional choice, all of which the CF backs provide. The sensors are 22 or 39 megapixels in size and they are both more than twice the physical size of today’s 35mm sensors. This means more and larger pixels, which ensures the highest possible image quality and moiré free color rendering without gradation break-ups - in even the most subtley lit surfaces."
23rd While everyone wonders what/if Canon is going to announce for Photokina. I've been looking at wider developments in the larger format digital imaging area (the one where I don't have enough spare cash to experiment)
For only 28,900 Euros you can have a Seitz 6x17. ISO 500-10000 scanning back that can take a full width shot in one second.
I love the idea of using something like this hand held :-)
Sensor manufacturer DALSA Corporation exclusive for Seitz
Vertical resolution 7,500 pixels (60mm)
Pixel size - 8µm x 8µm
Noise level 19 electrons / 50,000
Dynamic range 1 : 2,600 (11 f-stops)
As someone who avoids using a tripod whenever possible, I'm glad to see those hefty hand grips :-)
Whilst on technologies, have a look at the very interesting paper about sensor noise from NuCORE (two useful PDF files).
If you are looking for more technical info on sensors, then there is a lot to download from the Dalsa site, and Kodak has quite a lot of good sensor related info as well.
And for things that were announced and never saw the light of day... this Pentax 645D mockup from 2005. I've noticed a flurry of recent reports and even suggestons for prices, but it hardly looks set to make Canon quake in their boots :-)
August
28th If you have a look in Canon's very interesting 30 page PDF article about full frame sensors there is lots of info that might point to possible movement in the MF sized field.
The bit about stepper capacity and wafer yields certainly points to any camera not being cheap...
...and there is this bit about what the 'others' manage with MF
"While some vendors are calling their very expensive 49 x 36.7mm image sensors 'full-frame', they are not, at least in terms of medium format."
Note also this MF inspired thread on LL where post 3 (May 06) predicts the 50/1.2L and a dual 'crop' mode 1Ds 3 for photokina
20th There is a big Canon event on the 24th, it's possible we might get some advance warning of an 'all new' system although I'd not expect it until PMA early next year, since it would take some of the glory (and sales) of any new 1Ds Mk2N or 1Ds3.
We've picked some of the potentially MF related info from the 1Ds Mk3 page below...
10th At last some pictures of the new MF Canon - we believe the '4' signifies an early example of the 1Ds Mk4. we were told that the body is only for test purposes though and the final camera may look slightly different. Interestingly enough it looks like a normal 70-200 2.8L on the front
Canon MF camera?
Good to see that Canon have listened to some of the experts on dpreview and included a pop-up flash ;-)
9th Still no real info on Canon's supposed entry to the 'medium format' area, but consider that a sensor that size would be well beyond the image circle of current EF lenses... (10th - Thanks to Darren for pointing out that the TS-E lenses have a 58.6mm image circle - I should have remembered this since I recently wrote a lengthy article about using my 24mm 3.5L TS-E but the '2FF' chip size (48x36) has a diagonal of 60mm)
7th Well it seems the thread I linked to yesterday has been deleted. The most interesting reason would be that it was too close to the truth and Canon lent on the site - maybe it just got too long and was culled. Anyway, here is the original text (as posted on dpreview) from a supposed beta tester.
- "Before 1 month I tested a new sensor that I think it could be for the 1Ds new model camera. If what they told me is correct and no major changes will be done, then expect the following soon
22 Aug will be the official presentation.
21 Nov 2006 the first one will hit the streets at 9.999$ suggested price.
22MP 12bit color usable at 3200asa. (48x36cm newCMOS)
User could switch to 12MP 8bit color and work at 4800asa (getting almost same noise as with 5D at 1600asa, that my test showed).
Also 6400asa will be there as option but as I tested is not usable (except for B&W photos).
ISO priority mode.
New DIGI-chip offering 3presets for real-time tonality enhancements. (Much better than the one I tested in a new SONY A-DSLR).
Also 1Ds Mark III will be compatible with the new EF-Ls lenses. (There will be some new lenses soon for new 2xFullFrame cameras (in 2years maybe). Something like the opposite of the EF-S called EF-Ls or EF-Ds.
I also tested a new replacement Dalsa-CCD for MamiyaZD 21.7 MP with 12bit color but it could not perform well at 800asa.
Excuse my English I am from Greenland and I work in Germany and Netherlands where people don’t speak English"
It was pointed out to me that that would make the chip the same size as the H2D-39 (pdf spec)
Hasselblad H2D-39 Specs: Sensor size- 39 Mpixels: Sensor dimensions- 36.7 x 49.0 mm: Image size (8/16 bit RGB): RAW capture 78 MBytes, lossless compressed 50 MBytes (average)
6th Just to follow the buzz, have a look at the post from a supposed 1DS 3 (EOS 1D3) Beta tester on dpreview. Manages to mix enough probables, along with the contents of enough wishlists and enough new bits (48x36 chip and all new lenses) to stir the pot nicely :-)
July 12th More comment received suggesting that the 1Ds Mk2 N will indeed have 22MP, faster buffer and bigger LCD - and a $10k price tag.
It also seems that there are rumours going round that Canon is going to introduce an MF (medium format) system - not heard this one since late May ;-)
4th A different take on the 'no new MkIII at photokina' -- We've been told that although the new flagship camera exists, all the marketing and production requirements mean that it'll first be shown (in a box - for show only) in Feb 2007 in time for PMA. It will not be a Mk3 and is likely to be an 'around $10k' camera.
- Note - sent by a non anonymous reader in Europe (we will always give credit if asked)